[Avodah] Avinu malkeinu

[Rich, Joel via Avodah]

Has anyone seen anything on the concept of a "make up" avinu malkeinu on Friday when Yom Kippur is on Shabbat? How/why does the fact that we are not saying it on shabbat override the psak that we don't say trachanun on Friday due to the partially festive nature of the day.?

Gt
Joel rich
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[Kenneth Miller via Avodah]

Post by Rich, Joel via Avodah
Has anyone seen anything on the concept of a "make up" avinu
malkeinu on Friday when Yom Kippur is on Shabbat? How/why does
the fact that we are not saying it on shabbat override the psak
that we don't say trachanun on Friday due to the partially
festive nature of the day.?

The operative word here is "partially". Compromises can be made, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I would point out that this make-up Avinu Malkenu appears at Shacharis, not at mincha. Remember that the general rule is to omit Tachanun and A"M at mincha prior to a festive day, but to say them at Shacharis. The idea that we would skip them on Erev RH and Erev YK even at Shacharis is unusual, and I'd suggest that it can allow for exeptions such as the current case.

This case reminds me of a psak in the Igros Moshe (OC 4:74:5) about putting cold ketchup onto hot meat on Shabbos. Ostensibly, a solid piece of meat has the halachos of a kli rishon even when it is in your plate, and a cold liquid such as ketchup would be subject to being cooked by it. But Rav Moshe paskens that to be mutar, because the truth is that each of those halachos is a chumra, and you can't pile chumras together like that.

Similarly, one might say that in a normal year, Erev YK is so festive that we skip Avinu Malkenu. But in a year such as this, when we're going to have to skip it all Shabbos long, there's room to allow saying it on Erev Shabbos at Shacharis.

Akiva Miller
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[Rich, Joel via Avodah]

Similarly, one might say that in a normal year, Erev YK is so festive that we skip Avinu Malkenu. But in a year such as this, when we're going to have to skip it all Shabbos long, there's room to allow saying it on Erev Shabbos at Shacharis.

_______________________________________________
Yes, but what I was wondering about is the concept of the need for a "makeuo" prior to yom kippur at all. Is there some number of avinu malkeinus that must be said etc.
Gt
Joel rich
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[Zev Sero via Avodah]

Post by Rich, Joel via Avodah
Yes, but what I was wondering about is the concept of the need for a
"makeuo" prior to yom kippur at all. Is there some number of avinu
malkeinus that must be said etc.

It's not a "make-up", it's a "last chance, even if it's technically just
a tiny bit past the deadline".

[Rich, Joel via Avodah]

Post by Rich, Joel via Avodah
Yes, but what I was wondering about is the concept of the need for a
"makeup" prior to yom kippur at all. Is there some number of avinu
malkeinus that must be said etc.

It's not a "make-up", it's a "last chance, even if it's technically just
a tiny bit past the deadline".

---------------------------------------
Not if the practice is to say it at neilah.
GT
Joel Rich
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[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 02:42:11PM -0400, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: It's not a "make-up", it's a "last chance, even if it's technically just
: a tiny bit past the deadline".

One is permitted to say ne'ilah before sheqi'ah. However, it's more
typically said bein hashemashos. (And possibly much later than geonic
tzeis, if use a fixed, degree-corrected or sha'ah zemanis 3/4 mil.)

We can separate demai bein hashemashos, but not issur gamur.

The problem with baqashos are similarly derabbanan, and shouldn't be an
issue when talking bein hashemashos letzorekh mitzvah.

And I would give a similar answer when talking about muqtza or even
the actual blowing of the shofar at the end of ne'ilah. Even without
being definitely after tzeis, I believe it would be mutar because it's
a derabbanan bein hashemashos (safeiq derabbanan added to) letzorekh
mitzvah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

[Zev Sero via Avodah]

Post by Micha Berger via Avodah
: It's not a "make-up", it's a "last chance, even if it's technically just
: a tiny bit past the deadline".
One is permitted to say ne'ilah before sheqi'ah.

We're not talking about Ne'ilah, we're talking about Erev YK morning.
R Joel was considering it as a "make up", and wondering why that was
thought necessary. I replied that it's not a "make up", it's a grabbing
in one more at the last minute, even if it's technically already past
the last minute.

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Sun, Oct 05, 2014 at 01:22:44PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: This case reminds me of a psak in the Igros Moshe (OC 4:74:5) about
: putting cold ketchup onto hot meat on Shabbos. Ostensibly, a solid piece
: of meat has the halachos of a kli rishon even when it is in your plate...

Looking it up, R' Shimon Eider asked a list of questions. #5 mentioned
that there are two chumeros involved that may mean one shouldn't put
neither catsup nor ketchup on basar roseiach:

1- The Maharshal says that a hot davar gush is a keli rishon. (This
caught my by surprise, which is why I took a look. According to the IM,
I think provided by RSE, the Maharshal is quoted in the Shakh YD 93 s"q
30 and the MA 318 s"q 45.)

2- The possibility of bishul achar bishul on a davar lakh, like the
catsup (Rama OC 318:15).

So, RSE, the sho'el, recognized that it's summing up chumeros. RMF
replied if it were just a sefeiq sefeiqa, maybe it would be a sensible
chumerah simply because Shabbos is so significance. Then he dismisses
these chumeros as even being of safeiq quality; both are very trumped
shitos. (Which made me a little less upset that I had never heard of
the Maharshal's shitah.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

[Zev Sero via Avodah]

Post by Rich, Joel via Avodah
Has anyone seen anything on the concept of a "make up" avinu malkeinu
on Friday when Yom Kippur is on Shabbat? How/why does the fact that
we are not saying it on shabbat override the psak that we don't say
trachanun on Friday due to the partially festive nature of the day.?

The Rama (OC 604:2) says this was the minhag in Cracow in his day.

[Kenneth Miller via Avodah]

R' Joel Rich asked:

<<< what I was wondering about is the concept of the need for a "makeup" prior to yom kippur at all. Is there some number of avinu malkeinus that must be said etc. >>

I'm not aware of any such. I've always presumed that it is simply due to the emotional attachment many have for this particular tefila. (I've since gotten used to it, but there was a time when I felt sort of cheated out of the opportunity to say it in years like this.)

But as long as you've raised the idea of a set number of times to say it, I'll ask about a similar thing: I find it curious that the *full* vidui (including Ashamnu and Al Chet) is said exactly ten times from Mincha on EYK through the silent Neilah. (Al Chet is omitted from the chazan's Neilah.) Is there any significance to these ten?

Akiva Miller

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[Zev Sero via Avodah]

Post by Kenneth Miller via Avodah
But as long as you've raised the idea of a set number of times to say
it, I'll ask about a similar thing: I find it curious that the*full*
vidui (including Ashamnu and Al Chet) is said exactly ten times from
Mincha on EYK through the silent Neilah.

There is no Al Chet in the silent Ne'ilah.

I was taught that there is indeed an inyan of ten Al Chets, and the
extra one is to be said privately before Kol Nidrei. But AIUI most
non-chassidic Ashkenazim have replaced that with something called
"tefila zaka", so they're left with nine.

Post by Kenneth Miller via Avodah

Post by Zev Sero via Avodah
It's not a "make-up", it's a "last chance, even if it's technically just
a tiny bit past the deadline".

Not if the practice is to say it at neilah.

Well, "last chance until ne'ilah", which is a long way off.

[Kenneth Miller via Avodah]

Post by Micha Berger via Avodah
1- The Maharshal says that a hot davar gush is a keli rishon.
(This caught my by surprise, which is why I took a look. ...

For the benefit of others who might be unfamiliar with this:

It can be found in Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata 2nd edition 1:58 (only one paragraph on top, but more than a full page of footnotes). In 3rd edtion, it is at 1:64. In 1st edition, 141.

In Rav Shimon Eider, it's on pages 253-254. In Rav Ribiat, pages 651-652.

Akiva Miller
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