[Avodah] mass media meschilah

[Eli Turkel via Avodah]

In a few shiurim I attended over the past few days the speakers said that
asking for forgiveness of mass media, email, whatsup, etc is fairly
meaningless. First SA states that one should preferably ask for mechila in
person and not through a messenger. Second the request for a specific deed
and not a general request for unknown activities. One cannot really forgive
someone for an unknown action, mechilla should be honest and not just a
verbal statement.

There is a story of a masgiach in a yeshiva who was insulted by one of the
boys. The boy later came to ask for forgiveness and the masgiach refused.
He came back several times and the masgiach always refused to forgive.
Finally after several weeks the masgiach forgave the boy. The boy then
asked why it took so long to get forgiveness. The masgiach answered that he
was very hurt by what the boy had said. It had taken all this time to work
on himself to forgive the boy.

Question: In tefillat Zaka we ask for mechilla from others and forgive
them. How does this mass forgiveness to others work when we have no idea
what they did to us.

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Fri, Oct 03, 2014 at 12:09:44PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: In a few shiurim I attended over the past few days the speakers said that
: asking for forgiveness of mass media, email, whatsup, etc is fairly
: meaningless....

: Question: In tefillat Zaka we ask for mechilla from others and forgive
: them. How does this mass forgiveness to others work when we have no idea
: what they did to us.

See the thread "Ad sheyeratzeh es chavero" <http://j.mp/1xKE3HE>.
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=A#AD%20SHEYERATZEH%20ES%20CHAVERO

R' SB Abelesz asked a similar question in 2008, based on "Aveiros
shebein adam lechavero ein Yom Hakipurim mechaper ad sheyeratzeh es
chavero." (RSBA cited the QSA 131:4, but it's older)

Before asking on-list, someone had told him that RSZA holds that
Tefilas Taka is only about forgiving minor matters. The kind of
incidents we so don't hold on to, we would need reminding that
they happened.

Onlist, kedarkeinu baqodesh, we went off on tangents.

I brought up the machloqes between RYSalanter and the CC about asking
mechilah when the person doesn't know you wronged them. The CC holds
you must. RYS refused to give a haskamah to the CC, lest people see the
letterhead and think he agrees -- even if he writes in the body of the
letter that he he disagrees on this one point. That is how vehemently
RYS holds it is assur to hurt someone by telling them you wronged them
in order to ask mechilah. I wondered if Tefillas Zaka, if heartfelt,
would be enough to satisfy the CC *and* RYS.

R' Eliyahu Gerstl discussed famous stories of gedolim (giving one
about R YB Lipmann Heller as an example) who forgave their tormentors.
What if the person owes money, is mechilah sufficient? Does it matter
is the money is a debt or payment for hezeq? What about taqanos hashavim?

GCT and :-)@@ii!
-Micha

[Kenneth Miller via Avodah]

Post by Eli Turkel via Avodah
In a few shiurim I attended over the past few days the speakers
said that asking for forgiveness of mass media, email, whatsup,
etc is fairly meaningless. First SA states that one should
preferably ask for mechila in person and not through a messenger.
Second the request for a specific deed and not a general request
for unknown activities. One cannot really forgive someone for an
unknown action, mechilla should be honest and not just a verbal
statement.

The operative word here is "fairly". Such apologies are far less than ideal, but that doesn't make them totally meaningless. Under the circumstances, they are often the best that can be accomplished.

Is there much difference between "mass media, email, whatsup, etc", and when the shul president or gabbai gets up in front and apologizes to all, on behalf of those who run the shul, for any real or perceived inequities?

Or, for that matter, when the Kohen Gadol confesses the sins of the whole nation? For the moment, I'm not asking about korbanos or kaparah. Like RET, I'm simply questioning how the how the apology works.

Post by Eli Turkel via Avodah
Question: In tefillat Zaka we ask for mechilla from others and
forgive them. How does this mass forgiveness to others work when
we have no idea what they did to us.

Let's look at it on two levels. There is a deeper level where the effects of the sins are totally cleaned away, as if the sins never occurred. On this level, I think that Tefilas Zaka is either ineffective, or perhaps the opposite: If "we have no idea what they did to us", then we are declaring those sins to be superficial and ignorable, as if they had never occured.

On a lighter level, perhaps Tefilas Zaka concedes that the process is incomplete. Nevertheless, there is a quid pro quo here: "HaShem, listen to me! All those who sinned against me, I hereby forgive them despite their lack of apology, or lack of sincerity. So too, mida k'neged mida, You will please forgive me, even for the sins that I have not done a proper teshuva for."

Akiva Miller
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[Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah]

R? Eli Turkel:
In a few shiurim I attended over the past few days the speakers said that asking for forgiveness of mass media, email, whatsup, etc is fairly meaningless. First SA states that one should preferably ask for mechila in person and not through a messenger. Second the request for a specific deed and not a general request for unknown activities. One cannot really forgive someone for an unknown action, mechilla should be honest and not just a verbal statement.
-------------------------------------

There are two different issues here: 1) The optimal way to ask mechilah 2) The necessity to be forgiven before Yom Kippur.

Even though you may not be fulfilling 1) properly by posting something on your Facebook wall, you are still fulfilling 2) if someone who was wronged by you forgives you because of your post. So I wouldn't call it meaningless.

KT,
MYG

[Eli Turkel via Avodah]

Post by Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah
There are two different issues here: 1) The optimal way to ask mechilah 2)
The necessity to be forgiven before Yom Kippur.
Even though you may not be fulfilling 1) properly by posting something on
your Facebook wall, you are still fulfilling 2) if someone who was wronged
by you forgives you because of your post. So I wouldn't call it meaningless.

My rabbi gave the same answer as MYG. Hoiwever, it is not obvious that
(2) is fulfilled. i.e. can someone give forgiveness in a general way
without knowing what he is forgiving.

As an example A sees an announcenent on a facebook account asking for
mechila from everyone in his group. So A sends back an email that he
is mochel.
In then turns out that the owner of the facebook account had spread
a nasty rumor about A perhaps including a false accustaion of secual
harrasment. Is there really a mechila in this case?

Shana Tova
Eli